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Do we need a new ckcs club.........
- Thread starter MARK MARSHALL
- Start date
Margaret C
Well-known member
Kate, I quite agree - if we set up an alternative club, this creates even more of a "them and us" environment. We want to work together, and playing together really helps this...
The more "Companion" people who join and take an active role, the better
As I have said I'm not quite sure of the idea of an alternative club, still thinking out loud in a way.........
I do agree that it would be better if cavalier companion owners were more represented in the existing clubs, but unfortunately any members that were proposed by me last year were turned down ( they do not have to give reasons )
In the regional clubs, the Southern and Eastern Counties were so scared of 'pet people' taking over, that they changed the rules to deny newcomers a vote at AGMs.
Nikki, we could always propose you for the Cavalier Club or Scottish Club Committee?
Nicki
Moderator
Thanks Margaret - biggest problem is distance...
The Scottish committee meetings are about 5 hours drive away - just not possible for me.
This is shocking isn't it?? Shows what they truly think...
How do we go about changing the "us and them" situation?
The Scottish club have a Summer Party - they have games and a rescue parade, but is viewed by breeders as a "pet people" event so most of the breeders don't attend....
The Scottish committee meetings are about 5 hours drive away - just not possible for me.
This is shocking isn't it?? Shows what they truly think...
How do we go about changing the "us and them" situation?
The Scottish club have a Summer Party - they have games and a rescue parade, but is viewed by breeders as a "pet people" event so most of the breeders don't attend....
Kathy, they do exist, they are not urban legends - I have one who is 14 1/2 and is heart clear and symptomless for SM.......and a 7 year old who is the same, although I don't consider 7 to be a senior but rather to be middle aged. I've had healthy teenagers in the past also, and I've had friends with Cavaliers who lived into their mid-teens.
But, just because they do exist, they are not "proof that there isn't really a health crisis." They should be the norm rather than the exception. My gut feeling (from 20 years of having and observing the breed) is that perhaps 20% make it into their early to mid-teens with pretty good health and quality of life, perhaps 50% have an "average" Cavalier life span of 10-11, and then there is that remaining 30% or so
that die very young - from 6-8. That is a very unscientific, rough guesstimate, although I suspect it is pretty accurate.
But for a breed of this size, I believe that the figures should look more like 50-60% living until 13-14, 20% living until 15-16, and the lower 20% living until 10-11. (There will always be some dogs of every breed who die at a young or middle age.) If the early-onset MVD could be significantly eliminated, these later numbers would be more of a reality.
Pat
(Ironically, the 7 year old boy was retired from the show ring and neutered because of his gay tail! He is a very nice looking boy.....and probably should have remained in the breeding pool......The 14+ year old girl did have at least one litter, and I wish I knew where the offspring were. Unfortunately, her kennel is now defunct and those genes are gone. I had a total of five Kilspindies.....they lived to be 13, 14, 16, 16 1/2.....none died from heart disease; three died from cancer. The fifth one is my current girl who is 14 1/2. )
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Margaret C
Well-known member
I have just remembered something that really amused me at the time.
At the Eastern Counties AGM there was heated comparisons drawn between the possible infiltration of the club by subversive pet owners and the actions of the Militant Tendency in Liverpool.
The speaker was one of the pet note writers for the Cavalier Club website.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Hi Margaret
I used to sit by a certain Mr Derek Hatton when I used to go to watch Everton F C in the Jo Mercer Suite ,I wondered why I was refused membership of the UK CKCS Club could this be the reason subversive activities.
Brian,
You have just confirmed everyone's suspicions about you.
The most noteworthy event in the history of Cavalier clubs that illustrates the above discussion is the infamous schism when the twelve prominent members (referred to as the "splinters" or the "saviors" in those old days, depending upon one's point of view!) split from CKCSC, USA (original breed club for Cavaliers in the US) and went on to form the ACKCSC which became the parent club for Cavaliers in the AKC.
The new club vowed never again to let pet owners have a majority vote in a breed club and set up membership rules to ensure that this indeed would never happen again. (This was after the pet owner majority vote in the original club which rejected the invitation of the AKC to become the parent club for Cavaliers.)
There was talk some years back by some of the old time CKCSC members about starting a third club, but it was never more than just talk. I tend to agree that it's much better to work within current clubs.
Pat
The new club vowed never again to let pet owners have a majority vote in a breed club and set up membership rules to ensure that this indeed would never happen again. (This was after the pet owner majority vote in the original club which rejected the invitation of the AKC to become the parent club for Cavaliers.)
There was talk some years back by some of the old time CKCSC members about starting a third club, but it was never more than just talk. I tend to agree that it's much better to work within current clubs.
Pat
WoodHaven
Well-known member
This was (and in some ways is) a big issue. The CKCSC,USA would accept internationally accepted registries into its registry -- except for the AKC (which changed just a few years ago). I brought my UK registered dog right into the CKCSC, USA registry without an issue.
I always heard them referred to as the 'dirty dozen'.
RodRussell
Well-known member
I would not have called them "prominent". I know that at least one of them had not even been a breeder for a year at that point. Most were relatively new to the breed, compared to many other Cavalier breeders with a many more years of Cavalier breeding experience.
I disagree that the CKCSC,USA vote against joining the AKC was due to pet owners having a majority vote. I am sure that pet owners were in the overwhelming majority (over 90%) voting against the measure, but so too were an overwhelming majority of breeders, including the really "prominent" breeders in the club at that time.
The reasons for CKCSC,USA's vote against joining the AKC included the fact that AKC would not allow CKCSC,USA to enforce its code of ethics. Another was the fear -- since well proven-- that AKC recognition would result in massive publicity, prompting an upsurge in new, opportunistic breeders, puppy mill sales, pet store sales, and increased numbers of litters overall, which would be contrary to the best interests of the breed. With early-onset MVD becoming rampant, the last thing the breed needed in the mid-1990s was increased breeding by newcomers and others ignorant of the breed's serious health issues.
The new AKC parent club was not at all concerned that pet owners would have a majority vote. That was no problem, since hardly any AKC parent clubs allow pet owners to vote. The parent club feared most that the truly prominent CKCS breeders, the ones who voted against joining AKC, would join the new parent club and take it over. So, the AKC parent club's "twelve" made if very difficult for any other CKCS breeders to become voting members, and made blackballing of member-applicants very easy.
The CKCSC,USA's board of directors -- which rarely had any pet owners as members (Pat B. was one of them) -- voted to penalize the "twelve" for violating the CKCSC,USA's code of ethics. When the "twelve" refused to pay their fines, the CKCSC,USA's board of directors voted to expel the "twelve" for not paying those fines. So, this was not just a matter of pet owners versus breeders.
The end result of AKC recognition has been a disaster for the Cavalier in the USA. One "prominent" example is the ACKCSC's refusal to even disclose the existence of the MVD breeding protocol on its website. That website is supposed to be where all AKC Cavalier breeders should go to find out what they need to know about the breed, including its genetic health issues. But, instead of informing all of the AKC breeders about early-onset MVD and how to try to eliminate it from future generations of Cavalier litters, the ACKCSC's website says absolutely nothing about the MVD breeding protocol.
Margaret C
Well-known member
Perhaps we already have a www. kind of unofficial club; we certainly have a worldwide community here.
Should we be building on that?
This Club.
This is the closest thing to a Cavalier Club that I would want to join. I guess that I am not much of a club kind of person. I hate meetings where everybody sits around and they (the meetings) follow Robert's Rules of Order. I don't want to hear the reading of the notes of the last meeting and new business and old business. I have read some of the notes of Cavalier Clubs around here (actually in Oregon) and the discussions about who is going to be allowed to be a member and who isn't. I don't like sitting around and talking about sanitized topics. I don't think I could stand to be a member of clubs that took themselves so seriously. From what I can tell, any club around here is more difficult to join than getting naturalized American citizenship.
For some reason, it seems like people who get involved in these clubs start to think that the clubs not only resemble the real world but begin to think the club IS the real world and the focal point of their lives.
In the US, rules about puppy breeding and selling only apply to pet stores or large scale breeders. Some states have consumer protection laws but again, the usually explicitly exempt "hobby breeders." There are USDA (United States Department of Agriculture rules but, in all the cases I have found, "hobby breeders" are exempted from even those rules. USDA does not run a clean ship. The main focus is large scale meat production and things like that. Some woman was arrested for animal cruelty close to here a few years ago because she had 67 dogs in her house. She was certified by the USDA. BTW, as far as I know, she skipped out on her bail and has not been found again.
I am reading a book right now by Jonathan Safran Foer and the title is "Eating Animals." It is horrible in content but very well written and factual. USDA is mostly involved in "supervising" factory farms which is another term for animal torture facilities. Just awful. I am not writing about this now, however, I just mentioned it to explain what kind of regulation there is here. So, if the clubs won't regulate breeders and only admit "certain" kinds of people, and the only other regulations are USDA rules or consumer protection rules that only apply to pet stores, basically NOBODY regulates Cavalier breeding (or the breeding of any companion animals).
I can't see how trying to join any of these clubs is going to help with the main problem we are dealing with dog breeding and the SM and MVD problems. I only know what I see and read about, though. I guess that it is possible that things are different in other countries. Somehow, neither kind of club appeals to me. That is just me, however.
Kathy
This is the closest thing to a Cavalier Club that I would want to join. I guess that I am not much of a club kind of person. I hate meetings where everybody sits around and they (the meetings) follow Robert's Rules of Order. I don't want to hear the reading of the notes of the last meeting and new business and old business. I have read some of the notes of Cavalier Clubs around here (actually in Oregon) and the discussions about who is going to be allowed to be a member and who isn't. I don't like sitting around and talking about sanitized topics. I don't think I could stand to be a member of clubs that took themselves so seriously. From what I can tell, any club around here is more difficult to join than getting naturalized American citizenship.
For some reason, it seems like people who get involved in these clubs start to think that the clubs not only resemble the real world but begin to think the club IS the real world and the focal point of their lives.
In the US, rules about puppy breeding and selling only apply to pet stores or large scale breeders. Some states have consumer protection laws but again, the usually explicitly exempt "hobby breeders." There are USDA (United States Department of Agriculture rules but, in all the cases I have found, "hobby breeders" are exempted from even those rules. USDA does not run a clean ship. The main focus is large scale meat production and things like that. Some woman was arrested for animal cruelty close to here a few years ago because she had 67 dogs in her house. She was certified by the USDA. BTW, as far as I know, she skipped out on her bail and has not been found again.
I am reading a book right now by Jonathan Safran Foer and the title is "Eating Animals." It is horrible in content but very well written and factual. USDA is mostly involved in "supervising" factory farms which is another term for animal torture facilities. Just awful. I am not writing about this now, however, I just mentioned it to explain what kind of regulation there is here. So, if the clubs won't regulate breeders and only admit "certain" kinds of people, and the only other regulations are USDA rules or consumer protection rules that only apply to pet stores, basically NOBODY regulates Cavalier breeding (or the breeding of any companion animals).
I can't see how trying to join any of these clubs is going to help with the main problem we are dealing with dog breeding and the SM and MVD problems. I only know what I see and read about, though. I guess that it is possible that things are different in other countries. Somehow, neither kind of club appeals to me. That is just me, however.
Kathy
WoodHaven
Well-known member
This was before I had cavaliers, but I was told there were major miscommunications.
The AKC was coming, because no breed stays in the misc. forever. The CKCSC, USA could have been the parent club-- but....
RodRussell
Well-known member
But? But, it would have not been in the best interest of the breed. AKC recognition was not a foregone conclusion. Had the twelve not started the ACKCSC, AKC would not have recognized the breed, because AKC requires that there be a parent club with members well-experienced with the breed, and the only Cavalier breeders who fit that qualification were those in the CKCSC,USA. AKC does not drag people in off of the street and make them a parent club.
It was not in the best interest of the breed, and as a result of AKC recognition and the ACKCSC's anti-health-protocol attitude, the breed has suffered greatly.
WoodHaven
Well-known member
They would have found people to start a club... that WAS the threat. People not nearly as knowledgeable in the breed WOULD have been given this POWER. And as we all saw, once they became recognized-- breeders who were VERY anti AKC flew to the stud book.
The CKCSC club was given plenty of time and plenty of notice--
According to some people-- cavaliers have been suffering since the 1940's-- let us not blame the AKC for that.
That was the "spin" from the people (prominent or not!) who left the club to start the new club. I don't know anyone who was there at the time who voted to remain independent who believes that there was any "miscommunication." We may have been a bit naive to think that there would not be a splinter group but I think most would vote the same if we could do it again. One of the biggest issues was that most of us wanted to remain autonomous so that the club's Code of Ethics could be tied to registration privileges since AKC parent clubs have no control over registration and have no enforceable COE.
We hear the same lament over and over from breed clubs in the US and the UK - "we can't enforce our COE because we don't have control over registration.....whine, whine" - well by golly, the CKCSC could enforce a COE because a breeder lost registration privileges if found to be in violation of the club COE. If you sold puppies through a broker or pet store, for example, you couldn't register your litters anymore; etc. The COE could be specifically tailored to our breed, and the club had the clout it needed to really enforce the COE, so the COE became a requirement rather than a "suggestion." Breeders toed the line whether they wanted to or not because there were real consequences if they did not.
Had the club chosen to do so, there could have been REAL progress made toward tying some basic health testing requirements to the ability to register litters. CKCSC registration could have truly "meant" something to puppy buyers, but unfortunately there was never agreement among the various factions to take that groundbreaking step and the health protocols remained "suggestions." (I sat through many a long meeting where this was debated.)
The other big issue was puppy mills. We knew that Cavaliers would be extremely attractive to millers once they had the "AKC stamp of approval."
Pat
RodRussell
Well-known member
Nope. There wasn't anybody else. If all CKCSC,USA breeders had hung tough, AKC would have had to wait a very, very long time, if ever, to find anyone who would meet AKC's own standards to start a new breed's parent club.
The CKCSC,USA was given time and notice, and its members thoughtfully responded with their overwhelming decision, which was to tell AKC to go pound sand.
Cavaliers have had MVD for a long time, no doubt. The problem, however, was magnified greatly by AKC recognition just at the time -- the mid-1990s -- when we were finding out that it was genetic and how to eliminate the early-onset variety of it. The last thing we needed at that juncture was for totally ignorant breeders of other AKC breeds switching over to the CKCS as the latest money breed. I say "ignorant" not derogatorily; it was just a fact that they did not know about MVD or the other rather unique genetic health problems of the breed.
They just jumped in and started breeding and showing -- and at the start and for several years thereafter, producing very poor specimens as "champions", I might add, thanks to pathetic judging by judges who had never seen a Cavalier before 1995 and ignored the CKCS breed standard because they thought it was goofy and full of typos.
Until AKC recognition of the CKCS, Cavalier puppies very rarely showed up for sale in pet stores, and puppy mills did not waste their time with them. Then, AKC adds them to its Dog Book and puts them on calendars, etc., and the new parent club turns its back on the MVD breeding protocol, and the breed has been spiraling ever since.
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Yes, that was a big disappointment to me........I only know of two breeders who stood by their convictions and did not dual register their breeding stock. But dual registration happened NOT because breeders had changed their minds about AKC, but because they feared that the old club would go out of business and disappear and they would be left with breeding stock that could not then be registered with AKC and would thus be "worthless" (since there was a very short window that AKC would accept CKCSC registered dogs into the AKC) and they would only have registration with a defunct registering body. So this was a business decision rather than an ethical decision, and had nothing to do with a change of heart or mind but rather was a protection of monetary investment in breeding stock.
Pat